THE OMNI SHOW

Dr. Peter Gallant: I'm in a Mac environment, so I use the OmniFocus desktop app, but I also have OmniFocus on my iPhone and on my Apple Watch. If I'm driving, I can hit a complication on my watch, dictate whatever's on my mind, and I know that a few seconds later it's going to appear across all of my OmniFocus platforms due to the cloud sync feature, and the same with my phone. So once you know and you develop the confidence personally that you know that you can at least entertain, if not complete and engage in all of the things that you're capturing, you know you can finish those things or at least capture them and manage them in the future, your resistance to capturing drops dramatically.

Andrew J. Mason: You're listening to The Omni Show, where we connect with the amazing community surrounding the Omni Group's award-winning products. My name's Andrew J. Mason, and today we learn how Dr. Peter Gallant uses OmniFocus. My guest today has lived about three lives worth of interesting. He's a professor of entrepreneurship at Queens University Smith School of Business. But before that, he built the company that earned the first ever EPA approval for an automated system to test drinking water for bacteria. That came out of one of the worst disasters his country has ever seen. And he's also a multi-engine pilot, one of David Allen's earliest GTD podcast guests back in 2016. And the kind of person who once bought Ken Case a coffee in Amsterdam just to say thanks for OmniFocus. Peter, thank you so much for joining us today. We're honored to have you.

Dr. Peter Gallant: Hey, Andrew. Glad to be here. I'm a huge fan of OmniFocus and all things OmniFocus.

Andrew J. Mason: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let's dig right in because there's so much to cover here. You say that you've run a GTD-based system in OmniFocus for the last eight years, but take me back before that happened. What was your life looking at once you realized at some point in the distant past, was there a BC, AD kind of a thing happening once you kind of came across GTD and task management? Just talk me through that transition there for you as life gets more and more complex.

Dr. Peter Gallant: Yeah. So I mean, well, if we go all the way back to my first exposure to Getting Things Done in the GTD methodology, it was around 2003. The book had just come out. I was running my first startup, which was commercializing my PhD research. I have a PhD in electrical engineering, but it was on artificial intelligence neural networks in signal processing. So not any of the large language model stuff that we're doing now, but more computational AI. Some of the foundational papers had just been written in the late '90s. And so on campus, I was doing my PhD predicting and correcting for the optics of large telescopes to remove the atmospheric distortion factor that limits the resolution of ground-based telescope. But off campus, I had started to commercialize my work and essentially created an AI analytics startup in the '90s before anybody kind of knew what AI analytics was going to be, and did financial market modeling and other types of things where I could predict numerical sequences. Again, not the large language model stuff we're doing now. And so I was running that. We'd raised some funding from investors to do that. So I was growing my team. It was my first exposure into entrepreneurship. And I realized that I needed to significantly up my game in terms of productivity. Now, I didn't just think of that myself and then all of a sudden go and seek out a methodology. I was fortunate to walk past Getting Things Done in a bookstore. I stopped-

Andrew J. Mason: Wow. Okay.

Dr. Peter Gallant: ... and I said, "Wow, Getting Things Done. That sounds like what I need to do." And so I picked up the book and within minutes I was hooked. Because even the first paragraph of Getting Things Done, it's possible to have an overwhelming number of things to do and still function productively with a clear head and a positive sense of relaxed control. What's better than that? And that was exactly what I needed when I needed it. And the rest is history. I've been using GTD consistently since 2003 and have gone through lots of iterations of the underlying platform. And I think that's where I think part of our conversation is going to go to OmniFocus as a platform. But one of the things for people to realize when they're looking at developing a productivity system is you can't just learn a methodology. You have to implement it on something. It needs a platform. And so that's one of the biggest challenges. Some people start with a very simple platform, pen and paper. I started off with pen and paper very, very quickly. I migrated to the amazing new device of the early 2000s, which was the Palm Pilot. And so I really liked the Palm Pilot because you had essentially 16 categories that you could have defined in your to-do list. And so many of those ended up being contexts except for an inbox and a project list. And in fact, I love the Palm. It was really simple, really robust. I carried it everywhere I went. And that was really my first implementation and exposure to GTD.

Andrew J. Mason: Your system very much captures a significant portion of it. And when you're juggling things like the water tech venture and the teaching load and the pilot's license, what does total capture actually look like for you functionally? You wake up Tuesday morning and it's like, okay, there's a lot of stuff happening around here. How are you deciding what goes in, what gets captured? Talk to us a little bit about that flow of consciousness. Sure.

Dr. Peter Gallant: And I think for me, it goes back to that fundamental shift you have to make whenever you've decided to implement a productivity methodology like Getting Things Done. And so every year I do a bonus lecture for my students. I have about 600 students a year across undergrad business programs and master's programs and MBA programs. And I really ask them a question, first of all, and to frame this whole thing. And I say, "You're about to graduate. You've just spent a lot of time and effort and money to develop a series of skills, but how are you going to harness those skills? And how are you going to manage yourself personally and professionally for the next 100 years?" And then the 100 years is perhaps a little bit ambitious in terms of lifespan. But from that perspective, it really does signal that you've got to operate in a sustainable way without burning yourself out, without frying yourself, without overwhelming yourself. Yeah. Do we all get overwhelmed from time to time? Sure we do. And we have to know how to get out of overwhelm. And the underlying psychological shift that most people that I talk to about productivity have to do if they really want to get serious about productivity is shifting from managing time to managing commitments. And so when we talk about total capture, we're talking about the total capture of every commitment, small, medium, large, abstract, random idea at two in the morning. All of those things have to be collected somewhere. And for me, that platform that does all that collecting is OmniFocus. And the reason I like it so much is because OmniFocus has its own distinct inbox, but also OmniFocus is ubiquitous. I'm in a Mac environment, so I use the OmniFocus desktop app, but I also have OmniFocus on my iPhone and on my Apple Watch. If I'm driving, I can hit a complication on my watch, dictate whatever's on my mind. And I know that a few seconds later, it's going to appear across all of my OmniFocus platforms due to the cloud sync feature. And the same with my phone. So once you know and you develop the confidence personally that you know that you can at least entertain, if not complete and engage in all of the things that you're capturing, you know you can finish those things or at least capture them and manage them in the future, your resistance to capturing drops dramatically. And you need a low resistance platform like OmniFocus, but also you need to eliminate the internal mental resistance that happens when you're trying to capture something and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I've already got so many things to do. I've got way more to do than I can possibly do. And so I'm now resisting capturing new things, even though that new thing could be more important than all of the other things that I've already captured that I'm still trying to grapple with." And you got to get out of that resistance first. And that for me took a while and it ebbs and flows. We all have our moments where we oscillate between productive states and not. And if I find myself in an unproductive state, it's usually because I've somehow committed to too many things in the short term and kind of overwhelmed myself.

Andrew J. Mason: Talk to us about some of that flow of doing your work, defining your work, having things show up in OmniFocus. How does that actually start to look once you're landing in your inbox and you've, "Okay, I've got some time to actually process this stuff, how do I decide?" And what does it look like in your system specifically?

Dr. Peter Gallant: Sure. And what's interesting is that no two implementations of OmniFocus in terms of individual systems are ever the same. I know Robert Peake fairly well, who was the chief technology officer of the David Allen Company for many years. And so Robert and I actually sat down and did a Zoom session a couple of years ago where we literally compared our systems. And his is based on OmniFocus as well. And it looks completely different than mine. It still has the underlying kind of meta implementation, but when you come down to the specifics, I think everybody's implementation is going to be their own. They have to own it and it evolves over time. So mine evolved from using some of the really basic features of OmniFocus, like obviously projects and capturing individual actions. I was using it almost like a to-do list manager at first, but very, very quickly, the thing that drew me to OmniFocus was email integration. Being able to forward an email either as a blind carbon copy or capturing something to an OmniFocus "secret email address" that then gets processed by the servers, then pushed back as an object in OmniFocus and a link back to the email that had a huge impact on my productivity. So if we kind of go back and we referenced the EPA. So my first startup was an AI analytics startup. My second startup was a system to detect bacteria and water that's fully automated. So you can then do the test without having to send the sample to a laboratory. And of course, to have that test be valid for drinking water, it has to be approved by the regulator, either here in the province of Ontario Canada or the US EPA. So that was one of many projects that I had. I was CEO of that second startup and then that startup was acquired by a large French multinational. So then the number of projects expanded dramatically even post acquisition. So the first thing that I realized was I needed to make sure that I was really disciplined in what I defined as a project, first of all. And then the second thing that kind of evolves very quickly as I started to implement OmniFocus was I started grouping projects together in the conventional way of, if you looked at my OmniFocus system at a high level, I have a whole bunch of nested folders. So my projects live in two or three layers deep of nested folders. And the highest level is literally personal and professional because true to the GTD methodology, I capture everything. I manage everything personal and professional. My brains don't distinguish between a commitment we've made personally and professionally, so neither do I in my system. But I can open the personal or professional side of my system just by clicking and opening an entire set of nested folders and projects. So that's really the first kind of element of how I started tuning my OmniFocus system was starting to nest folders and projects. The next thing that I did was I implemented a folder at the very top of my OmniFocus system called the Daily Work Plan. And that work plan has a series of projects in it that have a series of daily recurring tasks that represent really kind of the flow of my typical day. And if I were to walk you through that flow, that flow hasn't changed very much even though I've gone from running startups to working on specific projects obviously all the way through to now in my semi-retirement job as a university professor. The daily flow hasn't changed that much. But what I work on obviously has. And so if I were to kind of drill into that with you for a few minutes, Andrew, how that works is I think everybody needs to. And Daniel Pink spoke about this when at the second GTD summit in Amsterdam. He kind of zoomed into the summit and spoke. He wrote a book called When a number of years ago. And really understanding how you as an individual work, what are the most productive times of your day? When are you the best at doing what Cal Newport calls deep work? And I believe there's an opposite to deep work called shallow work. There's a whole bunch of stuff that we all have to do that is low value work. And so obviously when you start thinking about how you like to work best, there are times where you're obviously going to do deep work, you're going to carefully protect that time. You're also going to allocate time to do the shallow work, what I call the detritus, the stuff of life, both personally and professionally you have to do. So I have detritus cues both personally and professionally. Then there's also for me a middle work category, which is the stuff that all of us do as a core part of our roles that's not necessarily the deep work. Deep work is only a very small number of projects that are my absolute best, highest work, the best use of me. But a lot of my work falls into that middle work and shallow work category. So my daily work plan has groups of projects in those areas that then refer back to lists that every day I'm blowing through some shallow work. I'm engaging in some deep work. And then I'm doing some of the middle work that's specific to my role. And right now that's teaching at a university. And that allows when you're teaching courses, I also chair an academic appeal committee. So we deal with individual cases. That really does admit a very simple and straightforward way of managing that.

Andrew J. Mason: You were talking before this call about how Malcolm Bain had actually showed you his setup in OmniFocus 4. And because of some travel in Europe and different circumstances, they're ended up existing, this situation where around 2:00 or 3:00 AM, you're sitting there migrating your OmniFocus 3 to an OmniFocus 4 setup. I'd be so curious to know what is it that he's showing you that is for you like, "Oh my gosh, this is worth losing sleep over. I need to implement this now. This is exactly what I need to do to move this thing forward." What's he showing you that's like, "Oh, this is it"?

Dr. Peter Gallant: Yeah. So I was on OmniFocus 3 for a long time even after 4 came out because I don't tend to tweak much with my tools. Once I've got a stable platform, OmniFocus 3 was doing a lot of what I needed to do. I was very happy with 3. But then Malcolm and I got together. We were at a Getting Things Done summer retreat west of Copenhagen that just happened in June. And so it's amazing when you get into a small group, we could spend some time sitting together with like-minded people. You get into proximity with people who not only really understand productivity and specifically the Getting Things Done methodology, but they also have a really deep understanding of OmniFocus. So we were able to talk about in very detailed ways about how we used it. We showed each other the high level overviews of our systems. And I was showing Malcolm how I was still finding that I was kind of working around a couple of aspects of my system operationally. And I was like, "Wow, I really wish this would be true." And he's like, "Yeah, this is all supported in OmniFocus 4 now." And so the first part of that was a relatively simple one, which was, and maybe it existed in 3, I just never knew about it, was being able to configure OmniFocus that you didn't have to send as you were going through and emptying your email inbox. What I was previously doing was forwarding a whole bunch of my incoming emails from my inbox up to the OmniFocus servers that then got pushed back down as OmniFocus objects. Don't have to do that anymore in four because you can actually enable a feature that allows you to directly write from Apple Mail into OmniFocus without hitting the email server. Very handy, very fast. I just created a short key for that. So now as I'm going through my email inbox, which is zero every day, zero at the beginning of the day, zero at the end of the day, I'm answering the two-minute emails, obviously doing all that stuff, filing all the stuff that has no embedded action, but then I'm hitting control option command I, which means send to OmniFocus inbox. And instantly the OmniFocus inbox comes up populated with the subject of the email with the email as an embedded link. And the reason that's so powerful is if I then need to reply to that email, now it's in my OmniFocus email inbox. And when it comes time to do that, I click on the link that shows the original message and I reply to it in Apple Mail. And same thing if I just need to view an attachment, I can bring up the email and of course just open the attachment, comment on it, read it, whatever I got to do, edit it. So that was the first thing was this idea of kind of an embedded ability of getting email from my inbox in Apple Mail into OmniFocus really efficiently. So that had kind of an immediate impact just in terms of speed of processing. But then a couple of other things that I had been working around that Malcolm was able to go, "Hey, you can do this now." The next thing was even the way that I was processing my inbox. And so what I did is with some editing of the view within the inbox, what I see now is as my OmniFocus inbox fills up with items, maybe I'll have 10 or 20 items to process now in my OmniFocus inbox. I simply go and I tab through the fields and I'm tagging with tags. I'm tagging with due dates if there is a due date, and we're going to get to dates in a minute again. And I'm also tagging with projects. And again, not every one of these actions has a project. Some of them live in the detritus queues, the low-value queues that are just going to... They keep on getting. The shallow work has to get done every day. So a lot of them are ending up on those types of queues as well. And then the thing that really kept me up in the middle of the night and the thing that made me finally decide to upgrade the OmniFocus 4 was in 4, you have two types of dates. And this was something that I felt was really challenging in the past for me was if you were being puritan about managing projects and actions, you wouldn't date every action. But what I was doing was I was using dates, the due date field, almost as an aspirational date to say, "Hey, on Monday. Yeah, this thing needs to get done on Monday." When you're looking at a next action in isolation, yeah, that action may need to be done on Monday. But all of a sudden when you fire up your OmniFocus on Monday morning and there's 50 items that are all dated Monday because aspirationally over the last week or two, you've decided to throw all these things into Monday, that wasn't working very well for me. And so I was having to change due dates or delete due dates to kind of get down to the things that really have to happen on Monday or they're going to die. And OmniFocus 4 implements planned dates. That's amazing. So now I feel a lot less resistance to designating something as a plan date and keeping my due dates really for stuff that is a hard deadline or is going to die on that specific day. So to do that, I had to stay up a little bit late, upgrade the database OmniFocus 3 to 4 to support plan dates in 4, which was very smooth. And then I went through, deleted every due date of every action in a very mature system with a lot of data in it. And then re-go and revisit those items and really see which are plan dates and which are really hard deadlines. So that was a huge element for me. And the third thing that did take some time that night and is still taking a bit of my time now a couple of weeks later is I was using OmniFocus not only for my operational system and managing my commitments and my next actions. I was also finding myself catching myself using it almost as a reference system. So I had a tag, like a reference tag or a blog post that I want to read. So I would tag that and I'd stick it in a kind of a category based project called Blog Articles to Read. And of course they were filling up faster than I was emptying that queue. So I was having thousands and thousands of items in my OmniFocus system and a lot of those weren't moving. And I was starting to feel resistance where I felt my system was turning into a reference system and an operational system. And I wanted to get rid of that and separate the two. So I implemented Obsidian and I took all of my blog aspirational blog reading out of OmniFocus and actually used the Chrome ad in that bring up the blog post or the webpage, hit the link in the ad-in that then drops it into Obsidian, tags it. It does a great job analyzing it, organizing it with Obsidian's built-in organizing features. And it gets it out of OmniFocus and gets it out of my operational system.

Andrew J. Mason: Man, that's fantastic.

Dr. Peter Gallant: So I've implemented essentially a Zettelkasten or a commonplace book as a reference system and a knowledge management system outside of OmniFocus, outside of my active productivity system. Huge impact.

Andrew J. Mason: I love what I'm hearing here because I think the inspirational part of this, the thread that's kind of pulling through all of these changes, especially during the upgrade that's happening is clean edges. Lower friction means faster movement, which means being more present in the moment with a greater amount of things. And for anybody that's aspiring in that direction, I mean, that's exactly what we're talking about here. And I love hearing that coming from you.

Dr. Peter Gallant: You got to have a low resistance platform, which is once you spend some time really understanding OmniFocus and it's worth investing the time to really learn the tool, then on top of that, then you have really low resistance to capturing, really low resistance to referring back to the system. I open OmniFocus more often than any other app on my Mac by a factor of 10 at least. I'm looking at my OmniFocus system 40, 50, 60, 100 times a day because I'm interacting with it by capturing. I'm looking at, "Hey, what should I be doing next?" I'm not keeping that in my head. I'm going through my daily work plan, my daily workflow, which even includes prompts, for example, empty my email inbox to zero. I still use budgeting software. So it prompts me to open my budgeting software and balance my bank account. All that kind of stuff is into this kind of daily flow. And it's neat. You can experiment with using OmniFocus and recurring tasks to prompt you for a really efficient daily flow.

Andrew J. Mason: Zoom us out a little bit there too, because we have the daily flow. But I also know that there's some stuff that just doesn't happen to show up every day. But is there a weekly review that shows up for you? Is there even a quarterly or yearly? Talk us a little bit through what the zoom out of life's work at the higher horizons look like for you.

Dr. Peter Gallant: Yeah. And that's obviously one of the big powerful elements of Getting Things Done is it's not designed strictly to manage the day-to-day tasks, as David calls it on the runway. You've got the ability to look at higher horizons of focus all the way up to, "Hey, what do I want to do in the next two or three years? What do I want to do in the next five years? What do I want to do with the rest of my life? Sit under a tree, sing kumbaya and do some life planning." But somewhere in there is, and I think it's worth doing that once in a while. I think I'm like the former Soviet Union. I plan in five year blocks. So I've got the five-year plan. So that's about the highest horizon of focus that I look at on a weekly or monthly basis. So once a month, usually around the first weekend of the beginning of each calendar month, I'm doing a deeper dive, a deeper review. I'm looking out over that one to five year horizon. But on a weekly basis, I've captured projects at different levels of focus and engagement that still get reviewed on a weekly basis. And I wasn't doing it consistently, but I've started using the review feature and OmniFocus for that. And what I've been doing is some of the higher horizon projects, I've been setting the review date to 30 days. But then for some of the ones, my detritus cues, I literally set them to every day because that way I can. There's three or four categories that pop up every day that I know I have to work on. So I'd like to see review have a number four or five beside it. And at some point during the day, I'm going to look at those. So I use review almost as a daily prompt. But when I'm doing my weekly review, I've got a large number of operational projects, that middle work, the stuff of everybody's professional role and personal life. That's set to come up on a weekly basis on a Friday. This is a Friday when we're recording this podcast, Andrew, but I've already done my weekly review. So I'm feeling good going into the weekend.

Andrew J. Mason: Maybe one or two questions. I'd love to hear your take on this. David always talks about everybody's system needs to survive when they go through the flu or they have their worst day.

Dr. Peter Gallant: Oh, yeah.

Andrew J. Mason: What advice do you give to somebody who is saying, even your students, "You're going to have a bad day, you're going to have a bad week, a bad month, whatever. Somewhere along the way, things are going to break down"? How do you advise somebody to get back on the horse and carriage once the inbox gets too big, the projects get too old without really just saying bankruptcy, burn it all down, let's start fresh?

Dr. Peter Gallant: Well, and that's the thing is you don't burn it all down and you don't start fresh. What you do, and in fact, this is interesting because I spoke at this Getting Things Done summer retreat that I was just at in June. I was invited to speak at this event. And one of the things that I spoke about in my presentation was what happens during emergencies? And you'd mentioned before, I do have a pilot's license and so a private pilot's license. And we study what to do when there's an emergency. And in fact, there is an emergency checklist. And of course you declare an emergency if something is going wrong. And we practice for that because eventually an emergency is going to happen. And in our personal lives, in our professional lives, we know eventually that an emergency's going to happen. So why don't we build the planning for that into our system design? And so when I know at some point there's going to be a day where I get a call, one of my kids, heaven forbid, has got a problem or something, and it's going to draw me away from what I'd planned to do that day. The first thing I do is reassure myself that anything that would die, I can instantly reschedule because I know all of my commitments because they're all in my system. So it doesn't take me long to go and reconfigure my day if I had to. And I don't have a lot of commitments that are going to die on a daily basis. I've designed my life to avoid those. I've also designed my life to reduce the number of fixed time commitments dramatically. So that's very helpful. But I know that's going to happen at some point, maybe one or two times during the year. First of all, I assure myself I don't need to fall off my system. All the things that are already captured are all going to be waiting for me when I'm back from the emergency. Then what am I going to do? I'm going to clear the decks and I am going to use my systems to support me in the time that I'm dealing with whatever I'm dealing with. Maybe I create a small tactical project that I start doing some brain dumping in. Okay, so we got this problem, we got to do this, we got to do this, we got to do this, we got to do this. And I just hive off a piece of my OmniFocus system for emergency dealing with the problem, but then everything else can wait. I allow myself to perhaps stop capturing in the short term or sometimes I increase my capture. So what I call racking and stacking. So maybe I'm still empty. If I've got a problem that's going on for a couple of days, I might still be emptying in my email box and scanning it when I can, and I'm just dumping it all into OmniFocus with the full knowledge that I will get to the OmniFocus inbox and clear it in a few days and the world won't stop turning. And at the same time, I can also decide that I'm going to specifically not do some of the things that I had committed to because I know what I've committed to. It's easy to go and renegotiate some of those commitments. So in the airplanes that I fly, we have circuit breakers. Well, if things start to go wrong, maybe you're starting to pull some of the circuit breakers to reduce the electrical load on the aircraft, same idea. And so when I spoke about this in Denmark a month ago, I asked the audience and I said, "What do you do? Do you have an emergency checklist? What do you do when you're now in some sort of critical situation or something that's abnormal?" And we talked through a couple of different scenarios. The first thing to do is admit to yourself, "Hey, I'm in an abnormal situation. I'm going to declare an emergency. I'm not going to hesitate." I'm going to say, "Hey, I'm not in my normal way of operating. I'm not in my normal way of working. I'm going to go and start working in a different way during that time," and that's okay to do that. And so I think everybody who wants to use a productivity system consistently has to grapple with the idea of what are you going to do when things go sideways? Emergencies are going to happen to everybody. There's done an unavoidable piece of part of life. How are you going to react? And how are we going to react without falling off the wagon, without your system falling apart? And without, as you said, declaring bankruptcy, which for the audience, if you're not aware of that term, there was a term coined years ago called email bankruptcy where people just deleted their entire email inbox because they were overwhelmed. You can also do productivity bankruptcy and I guess you could do OmniFocus bankruptcy, although I'm thankful there isn't a bankrupt button in OmniFocus where you could wipe out your entire Omni system and say, "You know what? I'm going to somehow start again." That's not an appropriate reaction. That's an overreaction to a set of circumstances that are short-term in nature that you could and should plan for and should be able to quickly revert to, hey, I'm going to operate a different way for a few days.

Andrew J. Mason: That's right. That's right. It's easy to forget sometimes that every system that maybe has fallen by the wayside, even if there isn't an emergency plan in place, was at least at one time the start of some good thinking. And so very often it makes more sense to prune the shrubbery than it does to go ahead and pull them all out by the roots and plant something new. So I so appreciate that take on it. Peter, this has been such a fantastic conversation. I feel like we could absolutely do a part two at some point because there is so much unexplored territory here. It goes on and on in the best possible way. For folks that haven't been in your orbit yet or really kind of seen any of your material, how would you best suggest people start to connect with you online if they're interested in your material or interested in just seeing what you're up to?

Dr. Peter Gallant: Yeah. So easiest way is probably LinkedIn. I do a little bit of posting. I post when I have attended a GTD event, I usually post about it, talk about some of the things that I took away from that. I'm also developing, based on at my university for all of my students, I give a bonus lecture every year about productivity and getting them to think about productivity. We mentioned that earlier in today's podcast, but I'm formalizing that on and launching an off-campus productivity program that's available to everybody. It's more keyed towards recent graduates in the first maybe 5 or 10 years after graduation, and that's called Productive Patterns. And so there's a placeholder website now at productivepatterns.com. I'm finishing the curriculum development for that. I've done about 50 interviews for prospective students on that off-campus program. And so there's a waiting list and a little bit of description of what's going on at productivepatterns.com. So feel free to check that out. And if you have any questions, then drop me an email at peter.gallant@gmail.com.

Andrew J. Mason: Peter, this has been fantastic. I am so grateful for your time here today. Have loved this conversation. Thanks for joining us.

Dr. Peter Gallant: Very good.

Andrew J. Mason: Hey, and thank all of you for listening today too. You can find us on Mastodon at The Omni Show at omnigroup.com. You can also find out everything that's happening with the Omni Group at omnigroup.com/blog.