THE OMNI SHOW

Nathan Snelgrove: And that basic feature set, the combination of deferred tasks and nested folders, I have yet to find a system that works for that. It's not tags or anything that drew me into it. Those are nice to have, right? Like all the additional features, the perspectives, the automation, all that's nice to have. But it's really just, I can put the lists where I need to put them, dump all the tasks in, it works like an outliner, it supports the inline comments, and I can just move on with my day.

Andrew J. Mason: You're listening to The Omni Show, where we connect with the amazing community surrounding the Omni Group's award-winning products. My name's Andrew J. Mason, and today we learn how Nathan Snelgrove uses OmniFocus. Welcome, everybody, to this episode of The Omni Show. My name's Andrew J. Mason, and today we're honored to be able to have Nathan Snelgrove with us today. He's a freelance designer and web developer by day. And then as you might guess from seeing the image there, that he's a guitarist by night. Spent more than a decade running Wildfire Studios, designing for everyone from multinational corporations to huge non-profits, and for about 15 years keeps finding himself coming home to OmniFocus, which he calls the only to-do app that feels like an outlining app. Nathan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for being with us on the show.

Nathan Snelgrove: Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be here.

Andrew J. Mason: If you don't mind, fill in a little bit more of the context and color of the intro there. Just a quick one sentence or two about who you are and where you're from, and what you find yourself doing day to day, I think would help fill in the gaps for folks.

Nathan Snelgrove: Yeah, so you summed it up pretty well. Design and web development by day and guitar playing at night a lot. Live up in snowy Canada. Not snowy yet, but snowy often. So just outside of Toronto. And I kind of work all over North America. Most of my time is spent, you know, making rectangles in Figma and then eventually turning that into something that people can actually use and building that out. So most of the stuff that I do is on, like, the high-end strategy side, and then I'll go deep into helping a client figure out their overall message and how they want to use technology, which thankfully is the stuff that AI is not super good at yet. It can kind of put you in the right direction, and it can draw some rectangles, and you'll end up looking like everybody else's AI-generated rectangles. But I spend a lot of time trying to focus on the high-end stuff and then drill deeper into how to make all of that stuff actually happen. So my focus tends to be on work where I feel like I can actually deliver. So if the ideal client for me when I'm working is somebody where I can sit back at the end of the day and say, okay, I actually generated revenue for those people, you know what I mean?

Andrew J. Mason: So not just to pat yourself on the back and say, I did something cool, but then like being able to say, look, I accomplished their outcome for them. Yeah.

Nathan Snelgrove: Yeah, yeah. I actually did a measurable thing and not just made something prettier because I think that's how people, that's why people hire you, you know? And then the guitar stuff, I've been playing guitar since I was 13 years old. I grew up in a really conservative household, and we listened to a lot of gospel music, but not a lot of other stuff. I was having a real hard time. I was very musical, but I had a hard time getting into an instrument. My guitar teacher, on the sly, back in the day, was handing out burnt discs. He's like, this is AC/DC. You've got to check these guys out. And this is like, this is Master of Puppets. You've got to learn this. And that was off to the races at that point. So in a weird way, playing guitar was my introduction to like the real world outside of that, like the real world viewpoints outside of the narrow stuff I was brought up in, which is fine and good, but it, you know, there's a bigger world out there.

Andrew J. Mason: Yeah, talk to me more about the design development aspect as well. What drove you in that direction to say, you know, this is actually something that I could see myself doing day to day?

Nathan Snelgrove: Yeah, I sort of tripped and fell into it, to be honest. It was not a profession that I picked out. I didn't go to school for design, which is something that I'm aware of every time that I get stuck. I started going to university to get a writing degree. So, in Canada, anyway, the University of Waterloo, which is known for its engineering programs, is, at the time, it was the only university in the country that had a professional writing and rhetoric program. And I was already, by the time I graduated high school, I was an award-winning playwright and stage director. That was something that I just found myself pretty good at, and my high school drama teacher was like, you should pursue professional writing as a career. So I went to school for that, and I was working on an ice cream shop, and this guy comes in with his kids, starts talking, you know, as parents do, and I ask what he does, and he says that he runs like a television studio that makes commercials. And I said, oh, no way, I want to write TV. And he says, oh, really? I need a writer. Mine just won an Emmy. Here's my card. And it turns out he owns the place. So I look him up on Google Maps, and I find out I'm like a five-minute walk in my apartment from this guy's studio. So I just show up one day and pretend I have a meeting. Like, and this is not something I would do now. I was 20 at the time, right? Like, it's just totally, totally stupid. I would never do this in a million years now because it's so wildly inappropriate. But I just pretended I had a meeting.

Andrew J. Mason: It's the shot, though. Big risk, big reward. Yeah.

Nathan Snelgrove: Yeah, exactly. What do I have to lose? Yeah. And so I went and did that, and his secretary, I don't know if she was super gullible or if she just didn't care, but she let me in. And when I walked in, he was staring at this whiteboard with all these commercial clients written out on it. And he goes, took you long enough. That was the first thing he said to me. And it took me, it was about a week after I met him, so I don't know if he was expecting it or what. And then he gave me a couple commercial gigs. So I was writing, I was writing national television campaigns, taking advertising courses in university, which I was flunking. I'm in fourth year university, my professor takes me into this meeting and he says, you know, I'm trying to figure out if I'm failing you or you're failing me. And by the end of the conversation, I've always had a little bit of a problem with authority, so he was like, you know, you're not that well regarded by the professors here. I think school might just not be for you. You should finish your degree and get out while the guidance is good and keep doing whatever you're doing. And at the time, I wanted to write about other things. iOS 7 had just been announced, and I started pitching myself to different outlets. So I wrote for Jim Dalrymple, I wrote for all the AppStorm-type websites for a little while, just because I was able to say, I have this pedigree, I've already done some writing, I'd like to write about this and try my hand at it. And a few different times I would critique an app's design, and then I would hear from some disgruntled app developer, not like one of the nice indie ones that we know, just some third-party developer. They were always like, can you do better? And I said, sure. And again, 20 years old, I didn't know how to use Photoshop. I had no idea what I was doing, so I downloaded a cracked version of the application, as one does.

Andrew J. Mason: Right, as one does.

Nathan Snelgrove: I taught myself how to use it, and I just kind of kept on escalating. And eventually it was like, okay, you can design apps. Can you make websites? I said, sure. I had no idea. I just sort of used Inspect Element and looked at code and taught myself. This was, you know, 2010-ish. So it was like, how do you build websites? And at the time, not now, but at the time, you could learn how to build a website just by reading the code in a website. Now, with React and all the JavaScript frameworks, it's basically impossible. Like, I have no idea how some of these websites are made when I look at them. But back then, you could just look at it and see it and put it together. Flexbox was an all-new thing. Grid didn't exist yet. Like, CSS was still not quite in its infancy, but it sure felt like it was in its infancy. So it was the sort of thing that you could teach yourself over the period of a week and have enough to hit the ground running. So I just kind of kept on saying yes to things, and the design side took off. And I've never looked back.

Andrew J. Mason: Shift me in this story arc, because I am old enough to remember, you know, 13, 14, I'm probably dating myself a little bit, years old, the days of FrontPage and Dreamweaver and being able to like, you know, tab back and forth and see like what code is running from a website. How did this start to, over time, shift into the Omni Group for you? When did you first come across them, or was it an instant memory, or is it something that kind of slowly grew into your awareness? And maybe more broadly than just like, hey, OmniFocus or OmniOutliner, when was there a space in your head that said, you know, actually, I probably should be externalizing some of this, you know, not just keeping every single project in my head or figuring out how to do it that way, but what started showing up for you that made you kind of lean into that direction?

Nathan Snelgrove: So it was that same time in my life, actually, when I was writing about apps and doing all that work and trying my hands at all these different things. And actually, I was doing wedding photography, too. Like, I was trying anything, anything and everything, you know? And it was a lot of stuff to try to remember. And at the time, Shawn Blanc, who's now a friend of mine, but I obviously didn't know him then, he started doing his independent blogging right around when I heard of OmniFocus, and he was blogging about OmniFocus 2. So I didn't come to it in OmniFocus 1, I hadn't heard of it. But OmniFocus 2 at the time, that was like the pinnacle of Mac OS, like of OS X design, I should say. That was a great looking app. It was like visually beautiful. Everybody's talking about how fantastic it looked. But also, it had a bunch of features that nobody else had. And OmniFocus has always done that, but in some areas, the competition has been catching up. And one of the things that they had were the deferred dates, and they had all the nested projects. And that for me was, it was just reading what Shawn said about it. It wasn't so much the GTD that attracted me to it. And I think GTD is sort of, in a lot of ways, it's this flawed philosophy. But it was the fact that I could just store all the tasks I needed to do in one place, dump them all into folders. And what I started doing then is basically the same system that I have now. It's just like there's a folder for a client, all of their projects live in there, and then back in the OmniFocus 2 days, I don't even know if this is necessary anymore, but it's so ingrained in me. It's like, throw an exclamation point in front of the name so that it stays at the top in your list of projects. So if I have a client called, like, AcmeCo, I would have, like, exclamation point AcmeCo as a project. I still do it like this. So that one's always on the top for, like, general miscellaneous tasks. And then individual projects for each client will be below it. And for the past 15 years, I've kept up doing that. And that basic feature set, the combination of deferred tasks and nested folders, I have yet to find a system that works for that. It's not tags or anything that drew me into it. Those are nice to have, right? Like all the additional features, the perspectives, the automation, all that's nice to have. But it's really just, I can put the lists where I need to put them, dump all the tasks in, it works like an outliner, it supports the inline comments, and I can just move on with my day.

Andrew J. Mason: Is there any sense in which, and maybe no, no is okay, but is there any sense in which this, you know, there's always like a ride or die, kind of like just, you know, yes to everything philosophy that you're talking about that was showing up for you, especially in the early years of the career, maybe even so now, but I think it's kind of had this chance to like temper with, okay, what does capacity look like as well? So this kind of dance between what possibility and capacity are for you. Is there any sense in which OmniFocus help you support that mentality to say, like, I really, here are the edges of what I'm capable of doing, and as long as I kind of continue on in this behavioral pattern, then I'll be able to continue. I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but just curious, like, what shows up for you there in that sense?

Nathan Snelgrove: Yeah, I think the great thing about OmniFocus, one of the great things about it is that it doesn't, there is no limit to how much you can shove in it. And that's also like the razor's edge. So when you're 20 and have no responsibilities to anybody else and have like the boundless energy of a 20 year old, like I'm 35 now, so I know I'm still young, but I often find myself thinking about how when I was 20, if I did something wonky in the gym, just sleep it off, go back the next day. And by sleep it off, I mean like four hours of sleep. I don't need a lot of sleep. And now I'm 35, I have an eight-week-old baby in the house, and I'm like, if I so much as like roll over the wrong way in bed, I can't check my blind spot in the car anymore for like a week, you know what I mean? And it's not like I'm old, it's just the slow degradation of the body, and I need way more than four, like I've learned in the past eight weeks, I need way more than four hours of sleep, consistent. So I think then I could say yes to everything, and as I got older, saying yes to everything became a burden. And for a while, I will admit OmniFocus felt like a burden because it feels like you have to do everything, but eventually the drop functionality too, and you can drop a task or drop a project, comes in handy because it's like, yeah, I can't do this. I need to let it go. There's a record that it was in here. There's a record that I dropped it, and then it helped in me figuring out what the boundaries and edges are of my actual human capabilities. The other thing is, I have undiagnosed ADHD. I don't know, do we call it ADHD or ADD these days? I have undiagnosed, it's undiagnosed by a psychologist, but my therapist is certain that I have it. My wife is certain I have it. My closest friends are like, you obviously have this. And it was a bit of a revelation to me when I was told I probably have it. It was like for about two weeks, I was like, it's crazy. I think I have ADD. And everybody else in my life saying, obviously you have ADD.

Andrew J. Mason: This is new news. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Snelgrove: Right. But the nice thing about OmniFocus with all of those tasks is also the ability to break it down. Like that outliner functionality. Like I could use OmniOutliner, but it's so easy just to be like, okay, if I have this task, and it's just as simple as, even this morning, prep a blog post for a client. Right? And put together the Markdown, convert it to HTML, save it in this location, copy and paste it to the website, send the link to the client. These are all separate steps, and I can break them down, and I can automate the creation of that project. But I feel like a normal person, if a normal person exists, and I'm not sure that a normal person does, but I feel like a normal person would just be like, prep the blog post. That's the task. But I can break it down into like 15 steps. It's not overwhelming. It's just the way that I think about it. I think OmniFocus has been instrumental in helping me figure things out about myself in that sense. It's like a software that has grown and shrunk with me over time, and I don't feel like it has limitations the way that I feel like something like Things. As beautiful as Things is and as lovely as Things is, and as much as I adore the user experience of it, there are these boundaries to that philosophy. And OmniFocus is overwhelming and wonderful because there is no boundary, there's no philosophy. It's just what do you need to do? You can start off simple, you can expand until you can't expand anymore, and then you can shrink it down, right? So it grows and shrinks with you over time and adapts to your needs.

Andrew J. Mason: That's so well stated. I think the deep and wideness of it, ADD, ADHD, I'm not certain. I don't know. But there are tasks where it's like, I really do need it to be down to the next level of, like, write the blog post. It's like you've got prep the blog post, research the blog post, write the blog post, release the blog. And it feels like the context would reveal what's obvious and next for me. But there are so many things floating around that it's like, I need bookmarks. I just need that, okay, here's where you left off. If something showed up that you got to attend to and then come back, you know, right now I'm doing a producer thing, but then something shows up and I'm a dad and I'm doing a dad thing and then I come back to the producer. And then like, okay, where was I? Something about that granularity is so helpful for me. And I don't need it on everything, but sometimes I need it probably beyond whatever that, you know, bucket that you defined normal might be. When somebody pictures normal, like most people probably wouldn't be like, okay, that level, you know, that level of granularity.

Nathan Snelgrove: Right. And I think this is the stuff that corporations talk about. I've never had a normal job in my life. But I mean, I think it's the stuff that people who work in normal jobs, in their jobby jobs, as Casey Liss would put it, when they talk about processes and everything, I think that's what OmniFocus enables at a personal level. Like, do most people need to have it written down that they should take the copy, open the file in iA Writer, and copy the text as HTML and paste it into the place because it's the only way to get, like, totally plain HTML? Maybe you remember that. I don't. I need to have this whole thing written down for my business to function. And I've tried all the project management software, and it's slow, and it's clunky, and it's laborious, and OmniFocus lets me work at, you know, basically the speed of thought.

Andrew J. Mason: Talk to me about, it doesn't necessarily have to be to do with OmniFocus, although it can. Anything in your life, career arc thus far that you look back on it? Maybe it's not a mistake, but you say, you know, yeah, I have been in this for, you know, 15 years. Looking back, I probably would have done that slice differently. Just so it can be instructional for anybody that is either younger or earlier on in their career journey than you are to say, okay, you know, this may work for you, but if it were me, I probably wouldn't do that again.

Nathan Snelgrove: You know, I think one thing that I've noticed in myself, particularly in the past few years, and I do sort of wonder if it's a side effect of COVID and everybody being locked inside and looking for anything to do, is putting too much stock in other people's opinions of how things should be done. I was just thinking about this the other day. I went off on, for years, looking for the right software to document all the projects, thanks to a bunch of videos that I watched from Carl Pullein, who's this guy who talks a lot about project management, OmniFocus not being the project manager, how he constructs projects, where he puts notes. I would love to get that time thinking about how other people do their systems back. I want to follow my instincts as much as possible in all of my work and not rely on what somebody else says I should do. There are best practices. There are ways to do things, right? Like, if you're a designer, it's really good to work on alignment. You should not release work where, you know, your text is not aligned properly to itself or to a grid or to a system. There's best practice. But then there's opinions, and the two of them can be wildly different. So the opinion of how to run your own business, I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do anything. I don't think that there's a right size to aim for. I think it's whatever you want. And knowing what you want instead of following what other people say you should want, if I could get back some of the time I spent chasing what other people said would be a great idea and just following my gut, I think I would be further along now than I am even now. I'd be further along than I am. And it's not to say that I'm not far along, it's to say that trusting your gut and doing what you want, maybe you fail, but at least you'll fail faster. And if you succeed, you might end up doing something actually original.

Andrew J. Mason: Wow. Wow. That's not where I thought you were going to take that, but yeah, that's right. It's interesting because I feel like that desire always comes from a pretty good place for people. You want to get the edge on whatever you can do. And sometimes you look around to see, has anybody else got it figured out? Is there another person that is using a different vehicle that will get them to the same place faster? And if I don't have to deal with the cognitive fatigue or decision making, you know, repetition, you know, maybe what I've got is as good as it possibly can get, but I also hear people promising that there's this relief or this other way or magic way of doing something that makes it feel better or easier, you know. I think... I don't know if it's laziness, but I think it's the sense of wanting to be as efficient as you possibly can, saying, if I don't have to do all of that extra thinking or that extra way of kind of tinkering around, then that'd be great. But this is, I know you mentioned GTD wasn't really a slice of how you ended up in OmniFocus. There is a great one-liner from David that says something like, there's never going to be a software out there that when you wake up on a Thursday says the first thing you need to do is call Jim. There has to be some sort of gut-level internal calorie-burning thinking that you have to do to actually make those decisions. And I wish it existed, but I don't know that it necessarily does, or if it does, you know, in the form of, you know, language models or whatever's coming down the pike here, like, if it's really as trustworthy as just our own internal compass, whatever that happens to look like.

Nathan Snelgrove: Yeah, I think we know what we need to do on a day-to-day basis. You know what I mean? It's helpful to have it written down because you will forget it, right? It was David Allen's line, I don't write it down to remember it now, I write it down to remember it later. I mean, there's so much truth to that. My foibles with GTD are mostly related to the idea of only having, like, you know, every project must have at least two tasks, but you should only see one visible task at a time. And I start to think like, David, come on. Get off that high horse. That is not practical. It's the implementation details that are foibles to me. But I think that overall, like the idea of waking up one day and having the software tell you exactly what you need to do, I think we're seeing the ramifications of that now with AI. We all know the people who are AI-pilled is almost derogatory, but I feel like it's the correct word. They're so far down that path that the decisions they're making are so clearly wrong, but you can't talk them out of it because they think that the machine has consciousness, right? And that it's smarter than them. And it's not. If we're talking about training these things on context, it doesn't have enough context. Their life is their whole context. I think people spend a lot of time looking for salvation in their productivity systems, and I don't think they're going to find it there. I don't even necessarily mean religiously. I just mean... And from a personal level, that's where they want to find their fulfillment is in their work, and then that means if they can streamline it better in the productivity systems, then their life will be better. But there's this part of yourself that you lose if you outsource all of that thinking. And that's always been true. And it's been true when you try and outsource all of your thinking to your task manager, and it's true when you try to outsource it all to AI. You have to be involved in that process.

Andrew J. Mason: So good. Anything else that we were talking through that we didn't hit, or you're kind of like halfway on something, and then we took a right turn, and you're like, man, I could kind of keep going in that direction?

Nathan Snelgrove: You know, the only thing I'm thinking about is like the trusting your gut bit with folks who are younger. And it's more like along the lines of like things that I'm glad I did. And things I wish I kept on doing, but it's not strictly related to OmniFocus. So for me, I think the big thing is to have interests outside of your work, and to absorb as much as you can. Obviously, with the guitars in my background here, a big part of my life is music and listening to as much music as possible. I made a joke earlier about AC/DC and Metallica, but I've been into blues and jazz and occasionally dabbling in as much country as I can tolerate for as long as I can remember because I just want to experience as much stuff as possible. I think all of that will come out in the work that you do. I think the more that you absorb, the more that you learn, the more that you put into the world. I think a lot about Martin Scorsese making Goodfellas, and how that film is this amalgamation of everything that he's been into in his whole life. It's like he's in his 40s, but it's the story of all the Italians that he knew in his neighborhood growing up. And the entire style of the film is all the French cinema that he's ever watched, with the fourth wall breaking and everything, and all of the Italian cinema that he's ever watched, with all that gritty, grounded reality, with American rock and roll dropped on top, made in the Hollywood system. And so it ends up being this tremendously original thing that's unique to him, and I worry that that's what we're all going to lose as we invest more and more into AI, and I think AI is a great thing. I probably sound more against it than I am. I think it's lovely that we're able to automate so much with our computers now and that we're able to ask questions and get intelligent-sounding answers back that are hopefully right at least some of the time. But I think we're going to lose that ability to bring all of our own personal contacts that the AI doesn't have access to, right? And throw that into our work and really make something original. But the only way that you can bring that level of original thinking to your work is to have really drunken all of this outside information and bring your whole life to the table. Your experiences are all part of that and should inform everything. You're not some little cog in a machine. You're you and you have value. You bringing yourself and bringing that value and bringing your experience is, I think, the differentiator between doing your job with AI or doing your thinking with AI and bringing your whole self to the table. And we're always interested in humans and people who want to bring their whole self. I've been thinking about that a lot recently. And that is the thing that I'm very glad that I've spent so much time watching hundreds of movies, listening to thousands of hours of music every year, because it's just, it informs, for me, all of the work that I do and all the attitudes that I bring to my work, and I would imagine that no matter what I do, it would be informing everything that I do. And it's one thing in my life that I absolutely would not have done differently.

Andrew J. Mason: Very well said. I love that. This is kind of open-ended, so feel free to take it in any direction that you want to, but... Well, maybe we'll put it under the umbrella of productivity in general, but is there anything that if you had kind of the magic wand or the billboard to the world and instantly just like all of humanity understood this, and you're like, man, if they were able to understand at least this one thing, or I could wave the magic wand and have everybody at least, you know, engage in this one behavior, this one line of thought, our world would be so much better off. It's just like we would all just be operating from a much higher standard, much higher playing field. Anything to come to mind for you in that space?

Nathan Snelgrove: Outside of the productivity space, it's just like everything that John Lennon said. Just, you know, if everybody could grok what John Lennon's talking about, we'd all be better off. But in the productivity space, and this is something I'm talking about with my wife all the time, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I desperately want everybody in my life to use some sort of task management, I don't care what it is. I don't need it to be OmniFocus. I just need you to write it down, and I need you to keep a calendar. And I need you to just, like, if you tell me you're going to do something, I don't want to have to, like, babysit that, right? And I just feel like especially running a business where I engage with clients, so much of it is babysitting the clients so they do what they said they're going to do, but it happens in regular life too. How many times have we all had somebody be like, oh, you know what? I actually can't do the dinner on tomorrow night because it turns out I'm at my kid's soccer game. Put it in your calendar. It would have saved so much effort from the get-go for everybody involved. That's the one thing I wish everybody would just write down some basic tasks and keep the calendar. And it doesn't need to be complex. Start small and grow as you need to.

Andrew J. Mason: That's so well said. I mean, honestly, it feels so elementary. Oh, the making and keeping of commitments. You know, what a concept. But at the same time, it's like, I know everybody messes up at any point in time.

Nathan Snelgrove: We had a friend of ours. We were talking about how we run our lives with this friend of ours and married with two kids, the friend. And she asked some question about how we knew when we were doing something. Like, we had to, you know, discuss, my wife and I, when we were going to get together with her. And she said, how do you have such an immediate answer? And I was like, well, every week on Sunday, we sit down together as a couple, and we just review what's on the calendar. And then we kind of plan for, like, what meals do we need to cook when? So that if my wife has a dance class or if I'm out with a friend at a pub, we know there are leftovers in the fridge, right? And she went, oh, that's a really good idea. I should start doing that. And I just thought to myself, but we're all in our mid-30s. What do you mean you should start keeping a calendar? How did you make it this far?

Andrew J. Mason: There's this level of acceptable behavior that has everybody... no, not everybody does this, I guess. Okay.

Nathan Snelgrove: And it's not even a level of acceptable behavior. It's like, I just can't, and again, maybe it's the ADD thing or whatever. I can't imagine not keeping all of that written down somewhere. I wouldn't have any idea what's going on. I love the new planned dates in OmniFocus for that, like, just because I can, like, put something down as a date and say, like, okay, I plan to do this day. I plan to call my insurance company about the new car that we're getting. It needs to happen by the time I buy the car, but I planned to do it three days ago, and it's still in my task list. You know, I need to do it at some point, but it hasn't disappeared. And if it weren't in that planned list, it would have disappeared. I don't know how I would remember to do it without doing that.

Andrew J. Mason: How can folks stay in contact with you and in your world and stay in your orbit and kind of see what you're up to if they're interested?

Nathan Snelgrove: Yeah, so I have two websites. One of them is my personal blog, where I tend to be a little bit more open about life and what I'm thinking and what I'm into. That's at nathansnelgrove.com. And my work, my portfolio, and all that is available at wildfirestudios.ca. And otherwise, you can find me on Mastodon or Bluesky if you look up my name in either place. I am Nathan Snelgrove at mastodon.social, and I am Nathan Snelgrove on Bluesky, the default Bluesky, whichever one that is.

Andrew J. Mason: No idea.

Nathan Snelgrove: And that's it. Those are the best places to find me these days.

Andrew J. Mason: It's perfect. Nathan, thank you so much for hanging out with us. This has been an honor.

Nathan Snelgrove: Thank you for having me on. This has been great.

Andrew J. Mason: Hey, and thank all of you for listening today too. You can find us on Mastodon at theomnishow@omnigroup.com. You can also find out everything that's happening with the Omni Group at omnigroup.com/blog.